On 20 May 2005, BBC Radio 5live made the film review segment of Simon Mayo’s show, in which the host discussed the week’s releases with critic Mark Kermode, available as a podcast. It was downloaded 42 times.
When the duo moved to Sony in 2022 – with what was essentially the same programme, but retitled Kermode and Mayo’s Take – their relaunch episode was the most popular subscription ever on Apple podcasts.
Exactly 20 years on from that first release – and all 42 downloads of it – Kermode and Mayo’s place in podcasting history is assured. Indeed, I’d argue that, in their mix of expertise, humour and warmth they set the template for much of what is in your podcast library right now. But for me, the duo remain the best at it: the intersection where compassion, intelligence and Monty Python references meet.
What is it about these two – both fine broadcasters in their own right, of course – discussing movies that elevates them to the perfect, format-defining listen? After all, there is nothing inherently box office about film reviews. Barry Norman was an equally fine critic, but for the most part his Film TV programmes aired late at night, only to the hardcore cinema fans who made an appointment to watch it.
No other film review show has an entire stand-alone wiki dedicated to it, something usually more associated with massive intellectual property like Marvel or Transformers.
What is the magic that Kermode and Mayo captured to ultimately become the juggernaut that made podcasting a thing?
You don’t have to listen to all that much of an episode to get some of it. Ahead of writing this I listened back to that very first download from 2005 (the BBC, as Mayo disclosed in the latest edition of the show, were reluctant to call it a “podcast” as they feared it was advertising Apple’s iPod; to this day, they refer to Apple products as “fruit-related devices”) and many of the key ingredients were well-established even then. Mayo tees up the excitement; listeners contribute their own intelligent and witty reviews; and then Kermode unleashes hell, in this case on Star Wars: Episode III – Revenge of the Sith: “A bad television soap opera, except completely overrun by mad computer graphics.”
And that’s the basis of it – the holy trinity, if you will – presenter; contributor; listener. And all three are essential.
Mayo’s interviews with the people who craft the films are always excellent, and given he is a fiction writer himself he is outstanding when talking to screenwriters, such as in the most recent episode’s discussion with The Last Of Us’ showrunner Craig Mazin. But he was a broadcaster on news radio station 5live for two decades – he was on air during 9/11 – and the ability he honed to ask a probing question can take a bog-standard press junket in a surprising direction. Naomi Watts once walked out when Mayo interviewed her about the Diana film, and the silence she left said far more about her real feelings towards the disastrous project than anything she could ever have uttered on air.
Meanwhile a great Kermode review – and there are many – is a work that, in terms of entertainment value, can often surpass its subject. (He himself once noted that his review of Meet The Spartans was better than the movie, as it was “shorter, funnier, and free”.)
When the podcast first started, people used to write in, anticipating audio gold as he tore apart something that had irritated him. In 2007, when he reviewed Pirates Of The Caribbean: At World’s End (“never was a film more accurately named”) he spoke for 11 minutes without interruption. It was extraordinary broadcasting; like an angry Alan Bennett unleashing a bonus episode of Talking Heads in real time.
That has changed over the years. Not only has Kermode mellowed – he was actually far kinder to the aforementioned Star Wars on its 20th anniversary re-release – he now puts far more energy into championing movies that do not get huge advertising budgets or social media campaigns.
He is especially thrilled by films with ideas – his highest praise is for something with “a brain in its head” – and his true gift is his ability to explain exactly why he connected with it in a way that makes the listener excited to see it too, without giving away any spoilers.
Just in the last month I’ve added Hallow Road, Restless and Last Swim – none of which I’d heard of before the podcast – to my must see list. Although he probably won’t be reappraising Sex And The City 2 – a film he described as “an orgy of dripping wealth that made me want to be sick” and followed up by singing The Internationale – any time soon.
Incidentally, the singing was hilarious – which reminds me to mention that the show is very, very funny. It makes exceptional use of recurring jokes without alienating the new listener. They make regular use of a Minions fart gun. They take particular joy in deliberately mangling the French language: for example, you can guarantee Richard Linklater’s new film Nouvelle Vague, about the making of Jean-Luc Godard’s A Bout de Souffle, will be translated as The New Vagueness, about the making of We’re All Out Of Souffle)
But the listener, represented by a stack of emails Mayo reads out, are the unseen heart of the show. In this post-religion, post-Covid world, where we can feel more disconnected from each other in our algorithmically-controlled lives, films are the last great communal experience. You cannot, after all, tailor the movie to make what happens fit your point of view – influencer or influenced, you watch the same thing.
Kermode and Mayo may be offering their own interpretations of the films under discussion as a minister would offer his interpretation of a holy text – but they never claim their views are the right ones. And they can often be persuaded. One of Kermode’s sayings is that films give back to you what you bring to them, and so the varying lives of the listeners are reflected in their own aired opinions.
People with mental health difficulties or neurodivergent conditions – and I speak as one – often see things in the movies the hosts have missed, and this is championed. One recent emailer talked about how they had really connected with Thunderbolts* as they had experienced male loneliness in exactly the way the film depicted it. It is this wide, diverse audience, sharing their differing views on the same subject matter, that is so enriching about.
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This connection with listeners goes beyond their film views too. It has a mantra of “it will be alright in the end, and if it’s not alright, it’s not the end” and people get in touch talking about how they have used the podcast as a way through a challenging time – exams or a divorce.
Most heartbreakingly was the story of Kip Freshwater, a small boy who had leukaemia and whose dad would talk about how they bonded over children’s films in between bouts of treatment, after which they would shout things like “smelly pants wee” into underpasses to relieve the stress. The story ended devastatingly, but Kip’s father still emails in and relates the ways new films help him deal with his grief.
The Take often talks about what films are really about – a long-running discussion is about whether Jaws is about a shark eating people or actually a metaphor for infidelity, as it is in Peter Benchley’s source text. (Personally I think it’s neither – I think it’s about the awfulness of seeing a terrible monster the other side of the water and watching on helplessly as it destroys everything around it; for some reason I find it more resonant in 2025 than ever.)
And oddly, at their best these shows are not really about films. They’re about connection – between the two of them, between them and their listeners, and between us and the films they review. If you’re still yet to listen, I suggest you do so right now. Give it your best self, and see what it gives back to you.
You can listen to all episodes of Kermode and Mayo’s Take here
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