Pundit Tucker Carlson published a nearly two-hour interview with Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) on Wednesday, during which the two conservative firebrands debated President Trump’s foreign policy, the future of the Middle East and America’s place in the world.
The conversation was decidedly contentious, at times deteriorating into shouting and insults, punctuated by a short clip Carlson published Tuesday evening showing him quizzing Cruz on Iran’s population, which for hours drove social media buzz around the full interview’s release.
Cruz went on the offensive Wednesday morning, blasting Carlson over his framing of their back-and-forth and urging listeners of his “Verdict” podcast to listen to the full interview he granted the former Fox News host.
Here are five takeaways from the interview.
Carlson presses Cruz on AIPAC
As he opened the interview, Carlson asked the Republican lawmaker why he has voiced support for regime change in Iran and potential U.S. military action to prevent the country from obtaining nuclear weapons.
The pundit needled Cruz about the benefit of the U.S. sending money to Israel as it fights Iran and suggested lawmakers on Capitol Hill are being influenced by the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, which raises money for Cruz along with many other lawmakers on Capitol Hill.
“Everyone is obsessed with Israel,” Cruz exclaimed as Carlson drilled down on the money in politics phenomenon, to which Carlson replied, “I’m not obsessed with Israel,” before saying “I’ve never taken money from Israel, have you?”
Cruz conceded AIPAC “raises a lot of money for me” and lamented the fact the lobbying group “is not more effective” in Washington.
The Texas senator said he came to Congress with the explicit intention of being a staunch defender of Israel and expressed no regret about his posture toward Iran or other Middle Eastern entities that seek to harm the U.S. ally.
Carlson countered that AIPAC is effectively a “foreign lobby” and suggested its influence could lead the U.S. into a costly war.
Carlson doesn’t believe Iran wants to harm Trump
Carlson insisted during his conversation with Cruz that he believes in “self-defense,” and would support military action against a foreign government if it was trying to harm the U.S. president.
After Carlson noted Cruz’s stated belief that the Iranian government is trying to hurt Trump, he asked him “why don’t you support military action right now against Iran?”
Cruz told Carlson that “nobody disputes” the Iranians wish to harm Trump, to which the former cable news host said, “I’m disputing it.”
“What other conspiracy theories do you believe, Tucker,” Cruz shouted back. “Did we land on the moon, was 9/11 an inside job?”
Before moving on, Carlson said Cruz’s “logic train has a massive hole in it,” dismissing the senator’s attacking him as a conspiracy theorist and saying he “wasn’t into the slurs … antisemite, I just don’t like that … I’m telling you what I believe.”
Cruz knocks Carlson for breaking with Trump
The conversation took sudden and a tense turn after Carlson peppered Cruz on Iran’s population, which the senator dismissed, calling the line of questioning “snide.”
“You engage in reckless rhetoric with no facts,” Cruz said, admonishing the former cable news host whom he earlier called a “brave” voice on issues like the coronavirus pandemic and immigration.
“I’m not calling for the overthrow of a government, you are,” Carlson said as Cruz pointed at him.
The Republican lawmaker later read a direct quote from President Trump criticizing comments from Carlson and others questioning his strategy on the Middle East, and advocating against U.S. involvement in Israel’s war with Iran.
“I never attacked Donald Trump, I campaigned for Donald Trump,” Carlson shrugged, defending himself. “I love Trump.”
The president criticized Carlson directly earlier this week, calling him “kooky” over his comments on the Middle East and taking a dig at the former cable host, saying he should share his opinions on “a television network and say it so that people listen.”
The commentator told Cruz he spoke to Trump this week and insisted “I think we should be very careful about entering into more foreign wars that don’t help us when our country is dying.”
Carlson demands Cruz apologize for defending Ukraine
After their debate about Trump’s position on Iran, Carlson accused Cruz of “presiding over” some of the country’s biggest “foreign policy disasters” in recent years, calling attention to the Republican’s support for Ukraine in its war with Russia.
“You’ve been spending the last three years telling us that Vladimir Putin is evil and we’re going to beat him with other people’s children,” Carlson said, raising his voice. “And you’ve never apologized for that.”
A seemingly irritated Cruz sat up in his chair and shot back, “the number of falsehoods you lay out in one sentence is rather astonishing.”
“The war against Russia was caused by Joe Biden’s weakness,” Cruz continued.
But Carlson was not satisfied.
“You supported the war,” he again asked him, insisting “shouldn’t you apologize.”
“You should apologize,” Cruz shouted at the pundit, before stopping himself and scoffing, “I’m not going to engage in the demanding of apologies.”
Carlson has for years criticized U.S. involvement in the war in Ukraine and stirred controversy with an interview he landed with Russian President Vladimir Putin after launching his own media company.
Carlson’s conversation with Putin came during a reporting trip to Moscow, during which he praised the country’s economy and infrastructure.
Cruz seeks to discredit Carlson after interview
After Carlson published his interview with the Republican lawmaker, Cruz sought to discredit the pundit’s framing of their conversation and criticized the former Fox host on a subsequent episode of his “Verdict” podcast.
“Did a long interview w/ Tucker. He released a snippet playing a “gotcha” on the population of Iran. I declined to play that silly game,” Cruz wrote on social media late Tuesday. “WATCH the full 2-hr interview, where Tucker ATTACKS Trump, attacks the “AIPAC lobby,” & falsely claims Iran is NOT trying to assassinate Trump.”
In a subsequent social media post, Cruz asked why Carlson “refuses to acknowledge” what he called an “indisputable truth” about the Middle East and U.S. foreign policy.
“Facts don’t care about your feelings Tucker, and they certainly won’t bend to your narrative,” the senator said.
Cruz released a new episode of his Verdict podcast after the short clip of their back and forth on the population of Iran was published but before the full interview was released on Carlson’s X account.
“On foreign policy, Tucker has gone bat-crap crazy. He’s gone off the rails,” Cruz said, arguing the pundit is misreading what the American people want from Trump.
“I think the American people want a president who's going to say, “We will protect ourselves against people who want to kill us,” he said. “That's exactly what Donald Trump is doing.”
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