Greg Sargent: This is The Daily Blast from The New Republic, produced and presented by the DSR network. I’m your host, Greg Sargent.
E.J. Dionne: It’s great to be with one of my favorite political writers going way back.
Justin Trudeau (audio voiceover): I want to speak first directly to the American people. We don’t want this. We want to work with you as a friend and ally. And we don’t want to see you hurt either. But your government has chosen to do this to you. As of this morning, markets are down, and inflation is set to rise dramatically all across your country. Your government has chosen to put American jobs at risk at the thousands of workplaces that succeed because of materials from Canada or because of consumers in Canada or both. And they’ve chosen to undermine the incredible work we’ve done together to tackle the scourge that is fentanyl, a drug that must be wiped from the face of the earth. So on that point, let me be crystal clear: There is absolutely no justification or need whatsoever for these tariffs today.
Dionne: I don’t think I’ve ever heard a foreign leader speak that way to the American people directly. It was the speech of someone who knew that Canada was on his side—and bear in mind, Trudeau had been, until recently, an exceptionally unpopular leader to the point where he had to step down. Since he stepped down and since Trump became president and started making this threat, his liberal party in Canada, which have been way behind in the polls, has now pulled ahead of the conservative. So he knows his country is with him. I think he also spoke as someone who understands that an awful lot of Americans agree with him in the sense that a great many Americans do not understand why we are slapping tariffs on one of our very, very best friends in the world.
Dionne: What the numbers show overall is that Trump’s first five weeks have slightly weakened him among his own supporters and immensely strengthened opposition to him. Those demonstrations out there at Tesla plants and the town meetings—that’s measuring something real. That opposition to him has really solidified according to the surveys. And as you said, the polls clearly show that Americans are very unhappy with Trump’s economic stewardship, and they think he’s not caring [or] he doesn’t, hasn’t focused on the problems he cares about. On the tariffs, there’s across the board opposition. Fifty-nine percent in a Post-Ipsos survey expressed real skepticism about the tariffs, including about a third of Republicans, on Mexico; 64 percent opposed the tariffs on Canadian goods; and even on the Chinese tariffs, which are more popular, they find a close split of 50 to 45 percent. But what’s really important is Americans understand that they’re going to pay for these tariffs. Sixty-nine percent in the Post survey said their effect would be to increase prices, so this is a real problem for Trump.
Dionne: I’m a small-d Democrat, so I say this: I think people underestimate the wisdom of the people in general. No matter how often Trump says, you will pay this, I’ve seen pretty consistently at least 60 percent and usually 70 percent plus say, We understand that we’re going to pay these tariffs. And it’s heartening that all the Trump propaganda in the world doesn’t work, but it’s also a real problem for Trump. And in any event, if this does increase prices at the supermarket, everybody’s going to notice that.
Sargent: Well, he has shown an inclination to do that. And with Mexico, it’s particularly interesting because one of the fake justifications for his tariffs is that he’s forcing Mexico to actually crack down on migrants in fentanyl. In reality, the former president negotiated an arrangement with Mexico at around the time of 2023 to 2024, which got Mexico to actually start cracking down on migrants going north through Mexico to the southern border of the U.S in a big way. That’s a big reason the crossings went down. He’s trying to take credit for the lower crossings, and I think what he’ll try to say is that his threat of tariffs is what did it when, in fact, it was his predecessor.
Sargent: That Donald Trump, he’s really a terrible dealmaker.
Sargent: That’s what Donald Trump says anyway, right?
Sargent: We probably shouldn’t. E.J., Republicans are starting to speak out about this now. Senator Jerry Moran of Kansas said he’s “uneasy” and Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin said he’s “concerned.” That’s an easy thing to make fun of, Susan Collins being concerned and all that. But there’s a real issue here for them that isn’t going away: The retaliatory tariffs from Canada and China are both aimed at our agricultural exports. And that means a lot of pain in red America in particular, right? Because exports are such a big source of the money for American farmers these days?
Sargent: E.J., you mentioned the bailout of American farmers that happened during Trump’s first term. The funny thing is Republicans are now actually starting to talk about another one. Republicans are twisting themselves into knots to defend the tariffs. And they’re saying things like, Don’t worry, farmers, we will pass something that gives you financial assistance through this process, which is functionally an admission that Trump’s policy is going to hurt them. The problem is that Republicans can’t break with Trump on anything, even if it hurts their own voters. They are actually required to put Trump above their own constituents. How long can that last though, E.J.?
Sargent: I think that’s a great point. Democrats really need to emphasize it, don’t they?
Sargent: It certainly would. I don’t think there will be unless this gets worse, which it probably will. We should probably also point out that there are a lot of food stamp recipients in Trump country too. So they’re triply screwing their own people.
Sargent: It’s really interesting that you put it that way. I can’t think of anything Republicans are doing that will help their own constituents, at least the lower income ones. Can you point to anything?
Sargent: By the way, on top of all that, they’re going to have to pass billions and billions and billions of dollars for Trump’s immigration crackdown, which is going to throw people out of the country who work in the agricultural sector, potentially people who are revitalizing red America as well.
Sargent: The whole thing is a total joke. I want to go to Mike Johnson for a second. He really distinguished himself on the tariffs—and not in a good way. He said the long-term goal is to reset relationships with other countries. He claimed Trump doesn’t intend to trade war and doesn’t want this to be adversarial with our allies. And he called for patience. I think it’s key that Johnson has to pretend not to be aware of what we all know, which is that these tariffs absolutely are about stoking conflict among America and its allies. There’s a malice and a venality to it on Trump’s part that I don’t think we should overlook. I hope Democrats call it out more directly. Can you talk a little bit about that dimension of it? It’s starting to seem as if Trump really is trying to cause extensive damage to the country.
This is an extraordinary turn in American foreign policy. And it’s really striking that beyond saying they’re concerned—and I think we should demand anybody [who] use that word, Yes, but what do you really think?—they’re really not pushing back against something that I suspect a large share of Republicans know is wrong and crazy for our long-term interests.
Dionne: Eugene Debs, the great American socialist, said there should be a “ninth beatitude,” which would go, “Blessed are they who expect nothing for they shall not be disappointed.” I really thought that there would be enough Republicans to stop Pete Hegseth or to stop Kash Patel or somebody—and there never were enough votes. And the reluctance in the Republican Party to oppose Trump on anything is really astounding. I think the polling that has come out so far may begin to give Republicans, particularly House members in vulnerable districts who are up next year and a handful of senators, some reason to say, This isn’t working. They will start worrying less about losing a primary and more about losing a general election. I don’t think we’ve hit that tipping point, but I think that may come.
Sargent: And you’re someone who’s prone to being patient with people.
Sargent: To bring it back to Trudeau, it’s simply amazing that it requires a foreign leader to tell Republican voters the truth about the Republican president and his policies. It really puts the GOP to shame, doesn’t it? Trudeau’s speech can be seen as almost shaming the Republican Party, can’t it?
Sargent: One would hope. E.J. Dionne, that was such an interesting discussion. Thanks so much for coming on. It’s always great to talk to you.
Sargent: You’ve been listening to The Daily Blast with me, your host, Greg Sargent. The Daily Blast is a New Republic podcast and is produced by Riley Fessler and the DSR Network.
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