Greg Sargent: This is The Daily Blast from The New Republic, produced and presented by the DSR network. I’m your host, Greg Sargent.
On Monday, Democratic lawmakers denounced the illegality of these moves. They showed up at USAID offices to investigate and were barred from entering. The Democrats are right: Trump and Musk don’t have the authority to do these things. And Democrats absolutely must find new ways to fight against these extraordinary abuses of power. We’re really glad to be talking today about all this with one of the House Democrats who went to USAID to protest, Congressman Don Beyer. Thanks so much for coming on, Congressman.
Sargent: Congressman, Elon Musk has confirmed that Trump agrees with him that USAID should be shut down. Agency staffers were instructed not to come to work. Hundreds have been locked out of the agency’s computer systems. On Monday, some of you went to the agency to investigate. Can you bring us up to date on the situation as of now, Monday afternoon?
Sargent: Can you lay out the legalities here, or, I should say, the illegalities? Many of you have said this is not legal. By all appearances, it is not. Can you walk through why?
Sargent: Clearly not. Will there be lawsuits? Who has the standing to bring lawsuits? What do you expect to happen in the next few days or, I don’t know, few hours?
Sargent: I think not. He has talked endlessly about gutting the deep state and that sounds good, but now we’re seeing what it actually means to gut the “deep state.”
Sargent: Can you make the case for why the agency is good for America and the world? Congress created this agency, as you said. Can you make the broad case for this agency?
Sargent: Well, I want to return to something you said earlier. You mentioned that lawsuits are in the works. Congressman, by the time people listen to this on Tuesday, some of these lawsuits may be filed. Do we know where the lawsuits to try and block this action against USAID will come from? Is it outside groups, from Congress, maybe some combination?
Sargent: Do we understand Secretary of State Marco Rubio’s role here? He appears to have been tapped to be USAID’s acting director. He said something to the effect on Monday that the goal wasn’t to shut it down completely. What’s your understanding of the situation there with Rubio’s role?
There’s probably nothing illegal about Rubio being the acting USAID director, although he already has a big job. But to the extent that it foreshadows simply folding it in without authorization or permission, that doesn’t work.
Beyer: Greg, I very much believe there is. Not only his shutting down USAID but also the notion that Elon Musk has gotten in and fired the people responsible for the payment system at U.S. Treasury—$6 trillion a year, which includes income tax refunds, Social Security payments, the salaries of our federal workers, including our military, all of our Army, Navy, Air Force. We’ve given a corrupt businessman, the wealthiest person in the world, control over that. God knows where he will send that money or what he will use it for. So yeah, we will very much challenge it.
Sargent: You’re talking here about the payment systems, that they involve some sort of classified information?
Sargent: And your point, I think, is that Elon Musk has not gotten security clearances. So there has to be more transparency brought to what it is he’s actually getting access to, correct?
Sargent: So Trump talked about Elon’s role on Monday. Trump was asked why Elon needs access to the Treasury Department’s payment systems, which, as you say, he’s also been granted. Trump seemed to suggest that Elon will be picking groups who do or do not merit getting government payments. Listen to this.
Donald Trump (audio voiceover): Well, he got access only to letting people go that he thinks are no good if we agree with him, and it’s only if we agree with him. He’s a very talented guy from a standpoint of management and costs, and we put him in charge of seeing what he can do with certain groups and certain numbers. The numbers, some of the numbers are horrible, what he’s found. A hundred, think of it, $100 million on condoms to Hamas.
Beyer: Yes, it is a striking admission. And once again, it goes against the law. When the Congress passes the budget, they’re very specific about how the USAID money will be spent. It is done by category. They don’t pick particular winners, the forgiven outside contractor. They let that be done by the career professionals. But it looks like Trump has no idea what Musk is doing. In that tape that you just played, he was very vague and referred, by the way, incorrectly, lying about $100 million worth of condoms to Hamas. Crazy stuff, which is not true at all. And this is part and parcel of all the stuff that they make up in order to justify outrageous claims.
Beyer: You’re absolutely right. We’ve been focused on Elon today, but similarly, the president does not have the authority to do these things. Just look at Donald Trump signing 200 executive orders in rapid fire. You know he had not read probably 195 of those executive orders, probably didn’t know what was in them as people were telling him this is what this is about, this is what that is about. This is a guy who loves to do big crowd events where much of what he says is made up, inaccurate, imaginary. And now we have him in charge of our whole country. It’s a very sad thing, but at least he should be forced to follow the law.
Beyer: I don’t believe it is legal, Greg, and we will be fighting it. And often we’ll be fighting it alongside the groups whose money is being denied. Once again, there are legal ways to do this if they don’t like a specific measure of spending or specific contractor. In the budget that we’re trying to pass right now, they can clearly put that in the language.
Sargent: So here we’ve got Trump trying to unilaterally turn off payments by the Treasury Department, we think. He tried an unconstitutional, illegal spending freeze the other day, backed off in the face of an outcry. Is there a case for the Democratic opposition to do something like this: For Democrats in the House and Senate to get together and say something like Mr. President and Republicans, you will not get one vote for any policy or any nominee at any point unless you rescind this power you’ve given to Elon Musk? Is there a role? Is there a way to do something like that?
Sargent: You brought up earlier that the Republican majority in the House is extremely slim. If all House Democrats were to vote against pretty much anything, it makes it almost certain not to pass. Is there discussion of House Democrats essentially acting as a bloc and saying, No votes for anything no matter what until this madness stops. Trump has authorized Elon Musk to do illegal things, that has to end or no votes for anything?
Sargent: So where is this all going? Elon Musk seems to be undaunted forging ahead. Donald Trump said that he has pretty much carte blanche to do whatever he wants illegally. He didn’t use those words, but we can see that it’s illegal. What’s going to happen now in the next few days? Is there going to be a pause? Are the courts going to step in? How do you see this unfolding?
Part two, I am confident that most of what he’s doing is not in the interest of the American people. He got elected because inflation was bad. So far, he’s done absolutely nothing to bring down the cost of food, the cost of health care, the cost of housing. He’s pushing things in the wrong direction. Stock market fell 700 points first thing this morning. So when he’s moving in the wrong direction, as he loses citizen support, it’s going to be easier and easier for Republicans to begin to abandon him. That’s what we really need.
Sargent: Do you think these are impeachable offenses he’s committing already?
Sargent: Well, by the time people listen to this, we may have lawsuits filed. Is that right, Congressman?
Sargent: And you anticipate some success?
Sargent: Of course. You think there is potentially a Supreme Court majority that would bless this kind of thing?
Sargent: Which would leave us with the lower court decision in which direction?
Sargent: In other words, there’s a plausible scenario here where the lower courts halt this stuff, and the Supreme Court declines to take it.
Sargent: Hopefully in the next couple of days, this will be on hold. Congressman Don Beyer, thanks so much for coming on with us today. We really appreciate it.
Sargent: You’ve been listening to The Daily Blast with me, your host, Greg Sargent. The Daily Blast is a New Republic podcast and is produced by Riley Fessler and the DSR Network.
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